Genesis and John Marriage and the Eucharist – The Two shall become One
When we receive the body of Christ at Communion it is like the marriage act when two separate persons coming together.
Parallels use to explain why sex outside of marriage is wrong – non catholics unable to receive communion in our church.
Gods plan for marriage is that man and woman come together, they cleave together and the two become one.
The two becoming one happens in the marital act between husband and wife. They physically join and the union is real.
We, in the Eucharist, we become one when we receive Christ into our body. 2 Peter says we become partakers in the divine nature. Nowhere on this earth is this more true than when we receive the Eucharist.
The physical union is the sign that man and woman are indeed husband and wife. When people engage in physical union outside of marriage they are lying with their body. Partaking of the Eucharist is the same in that you are performing the act of union but you are lying if you don’t believe what the Catholic Church believes.
In the beginning.
Gen 2:24
Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.
This text is talking about marriage in general.
There is a three step process going on here.
1. A man (and woman) leaves father and mother
2. Cleaves to wife – In other words they have a public commitment before man and God that they are committing their selves to one another for their entire lives
3. And then the two become one flesh.
The two becoming one flesh is after the man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife and not before.
There are no test runs here – like lets live together for a while and see how this works. No, there is no becoming one flesh and joining in the marital embrace physically until there is a commitment in place and when there is a commitment and the two become one flesh the marriage is said to be consummated.
John 19:30 reads
When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
However in the Douay-Rheims Bible – which is the old English version, it says
Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated
So the same language that is used where the two become one flesh, that is the consummation of marriage, is here with Jesus’ death
So keeping that in mind, when we go to Ephesians 5:31-32
V31 - "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
This is the same language used in Genesis 2:24 but it goes on in
v32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;
So we have the same three step process here where Jesus becoming one with the Church as we have for husband and wife
What do we have:
Step One
Jesus leaving His Father and His mother.
Jesus left His Father to become human. He humbled himself to take on the mantle of humanity.
He left His earthly mother, Mary, because it was time for Him to establish His own household, which the bible tells us is the Church.
Step Two
He cleaved to His wife, His spouse. Jesus gave himself fully and without reservation. And basically we see this in Jesus passion where he cleaved Himself to us when He underwent the agony in the garden of Gethsemane, gave His body up for scourging, when He carried His cross through the streets of Jerusalem and when He allowed Himself to be nailed to the Cross, for us.
Step Three
John 19:30 says: It is consummated.
.
And you have this three step process:
1. Jesus leaves His Father and mother
2. He cleaved to His wife/spouse – the Church
3. And the two become one: It is consummated
In Colossians 1:21-22, it says:
“And you, who once were estranged ..… he (Jesus) has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, …”
Back in Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Jesus gave himself up for us totally and completely on the Cross. The two were made one.
Source: John Martignoni www.biblechristiansociety.com
From his MP3 talk titled Marriage and the Eucharist
However, the above text was transcribed from an interview he did on a recent Catholic Answers Live radio show.
Wednesday, June 9, 2010
Gospel of Luke Jesus Birth and Death
Gospel of Luke Jesus Birth and Death
When Jesus Was Born
Luke 1
[31] And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
[34] And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"
Luke 2
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,
[5] to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.
[7] And she gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
When Jesus Died
Luke 23
[50] Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathe'a. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man,
[51] who had not consented to their purpose and deed, and he was looking for the kingdom of God.
[52] This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
[53] Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud, and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb, where no one had ever yet been laid.
Comments
When Jesus was born He began in a virgins womb and when He died Jesus was taken to a tomb in which no one had yet been laid.
He was wrapped in swaddling cloths when born and a wrapped in a linen shroud when taken from the Cross.
He was laid in a manger when born and laid in a rock hewn tomb when buried.
Both Joseph, foster father of Jesus, and Joseph of Arimathea were righteous men who ‘negotiated’ to either take Jesus to the manger or to take Jesus down from the Cross to the tomb.
***********
Luke 2
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom;
[43] and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it,
[44] but supposing him to be in the company they went a day's journey, and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances;
[45] and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him.
[46] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions;
[47] and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
At 12 yo Jesus went on pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover.
At this time He was separated from His mother because He had to do the will of His Father. Jesus went to the Temple and amazes everyone with His wisdom.
Jesus is reunited with His parents on the Third day.
This event prefigures what will happen at the end of Jesus life.
At the end of His life, Jesus went to Jerusalem at the feast of Passover.
Jesus goes to the Temple and amazes everyone with His wisdom
Separated from His mother He goes to the Cross to do the will of His Father.
Luke 19 47-48
And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people sought to destroy him; but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people hung upon his words.
Luke 20:1, 26
[1] One day, as he was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up
[26] And they were not able in the presence of the people to catch him by what he said; but marveling at his answer they were silent.
When Jesus Was Born
Luke 1
[31] And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
[34] And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"
Luke 2
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,
[5] to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.
[7] And she gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
When Jesus Died
Luke 23
[50] Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathe'a. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man,
[51] who had not consented to their purpose and deed, and he was looking for the kingdom of God.
[52] This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
[53] Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud, and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb, where no one had ever yet been laid.
Comments
When Jesus was born He began in a virgins womb and when He died Jesus was taken to a tomb in which no one had yet been laid.
He was wrapped in swaddling cloths when born and a wrapped in a linen shroud when taken from the Cross.
He was laid in a manger when born and laid in a rock hewn tomb when buried.
Both Joseph, foster father of Jesus, and Joseph of Arimathea were righteous men who ‘negotiated’ to either take Jesus to the manger or to take Jesus down from the Cross to the tomb.
***********
Luke 2
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom;
[43] and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it,
[44] but supposing him to be in the company they went a day's journey, and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances;
[45] and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him.
[46] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions;
[47] and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
At 12 yo Jesus went on pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover.
At this time He was separated from His mother because He had to do the will of His Father. Jesus went to the Temple and amazes everyone with His wisdom.
Jesus is reunited with His parents on the Third day.
This event prefigures what will happen at the end of Jesus life.
At the end of His life, Jesus went to Jerusalem at the feast of Passover.
Jesus goes to the Temple and amazes everyone with His wisdom
Separated from His mother He goes to the Cross to do the will of His Father.
Luke 19 47-48
And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people sought to destroy him; but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people hung upon his words.
Luke 20:1, 26
[1] One day, as he was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up
[26] And they were not able in the presence of the people to catch him by what he said; but marveling at his answer they were silent.
Gospel of St John - THE HOUR
Gospel of St John - THE HOUR
Mary only speaks twice in Johns Gospel.
Mary appears in the most pivotal moments in Christ’s ministry.
In fact, she appears at the very beginning of His public ministry the wedding feast of Cana and she appears at the very end of His public ministry – His climax at Calvary.
She appears when Jesus performs His first miracle at Cana and when He performs His greatest miracle as He conquers sin and death rising from the dead.
In both of these scenes Mary is mentioned three times.
At Cana she is mentioned three times and at Calvary she is mentioned three times.
There are many parallels in these two scenes.
At Cana we first hear about Jesus ‘Hour’ and it is here that Jesus refers to (his mother) Mary as ‘Woman’ and at the Cross we see what the ‘Hour’ is all about. Just before He dies on the Cross, in the midst of all this excruciating pain of the crucifixion Jesus asks the beloved disciple John to take care of His mother, and it is here where He turns to His mother and calls her ‘Woman’!
Join me as we explore the theme of The Hour
Do you remember in the wedding feast at Cana where we encountered Jesus talking about His hour?
There at Cana Jesus said to Mary in John 2:4 , “My hour has not yet come”.
And for many chapters afterwards this theme of “the hour” will recur over and over again. Jesus is going to constantly say ‘my hour has not yet come’.
Let me give you a few examples:
John 4:21-23 Jesus says"... the hour is coming, …, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth...”
In John 5:25 Jesus says “… the hour is coming, …, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God….”
So we are hearing about this hour, Jesus says ‘my hour has not yet come’ and then ‘my hour is coming’ and then when we turn to John 7:30, some of the leaders of the Jews in Jerusalem tried to arrest Jesus, but the text tells us Jesus escaped through their midst because quote “his hour had not yet come”. So He escaped from their plans to kill him because His hour had not yet come. In John 8:20 they tried to arrest Jesus once again and once again Jesus escapes because quote “his hour had not yet come. “
Over and over we get to hear about ‘the hour is coming’ in Johns Gospel and by the time we get to chapter 12, we finally have a chance to hear about the hour arriving. As readers we are relieved because we are longing to find out what the Hour is all about.
So lets turn to John 12:20 to see for ourselves what is this “hour” and how it is coming to fulfilment.
John 12:20-33
[20] Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
[21] So these came to Philip, who was from Beth-sa'ida in Galilee, and said to him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
[22] Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew went with Philip and they told Jesus.
[23] And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified.
Now as Jesus is about to enter Jerusalem to die, these Greeks these gentiles come to Him and want to meet Him, foreshadowing how through Jesus death and resurrection He is going to bring about redemption and salvation not just for the Jews but for all humanity, even these pagan Greeks.
Well, Jesus at this moment, says ‘now the hour has come’.
The “hour” has finally come.
Notice in the text what the hour is all about.
The Hour is the hour of His glory (as we see in verse 23 above).
What is the “glory” of Jesus in the Gospel of John?
Take a look at how Jesus describes the moment of His glory in subsequent verses 24 and 25.
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
[25] He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
So Jesus is talking about how His hour has finally come and it’s the hour of His glory where He will be glorified.
Then He talks about this grain of wheat falling into the earth and dying and then He talks about losing your life in order to keep it.
What does verse 24 and 25 tell us about Jesus’ “hour of glory”?
He will lose His life like the grain of wheat and go down into the ground, into the tomb and then on Easter Sunday He will be raised up and bear much fruit – the fruit of salvation for all humanity.
The glory of Christ is not about worldly glory.
This is not the moment where He comes in worldly splendour and all these dignitaries and heads of state are going to bow down before Him.
Quite the opposite.
From a human perspective Jesus death on the Cross is the moment in which He is defeated, it seems, from an earthly perspective.
He is defeated by His enemies.
He is defeated by the Romans.
But yet John’s Gospel is trying to get us to look at this not just from a human perspective but a heavenly or spiritual perspective where we see that Jesus’ crucifixion at the hands of the Romans plotted through the Jewish leaders is actually Jesus’ moment of triumph because He is coming to bring about a spiritual redemption of all humanity.
John’s Gospel tells us a little bit more about this “hour” and what’s going to happen in this hour in John 12 verse 31 to 33.
So pay attention to what Jesus says will happen in His hour of glory.
[31] Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;
[32] and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
[33] He said this to show by what death he was to die.
Notice in Verse 32 Jesus speaks of being lifted up from the earth and will draw all men to himself which refers to being raised up on the Cross and through His death all men are going to be drawn to Him to be saved.
But what is going to happen when Jesus is lifted up and He goes to His death on the Cross?
Verse 31 tells us what is going to happen.
The ruler of this world will be cast out.
Who is the ruler of this world? (see Luke 4:6, Matt 4:9)
The ruler is the devil – satan – the ancient serpent. (see Revelation 12:9)
Notice the hour of Jesus, the hour of His glory that is the hour or the moment in which the devil will be defeated.
It is the moment when Genesis 3:15 will be fulfilled, when the devil is defeated, when the serpent will finally be crushed.
(different translations of Genesis 3:15 say either crushed, bruised or strike the head)
So think about this, the hour on the Cross, when we turn to John 19 and the scene where Jesus is with Mary and the beloved disciple, this is the moment of Jesus hour.
The Hour is the hour His glory but that is also the hour when the devil is defeated - when the ruler of this world is cast out.
That is the hour when Genesis 3:15 is fulfilled and in that context of Genesis 3:15 being fulfilled and the hour of Jesus glory on Calvary, Jesus turns to His mother at that moment (John 19:26) and calls His mother, “Woman”.
What woman do you think Jesus has in mind?
Eve.
The woman of Genesis.
The woman that God spoke of in Genesis 3:15 about how a woman will have a son that will crush the head of the serpent and there in the hour where the ruler of the world is cast out here Mary is present with her son. She is the Woman and through her son, the death of her son crushes the head of the serpent.
Source: Dr Edward Sri Bible Study
Mary only speaks twice in Johns Gospel.
Mary appears in the most pivotal moments in Christ’s ministry.
In fact, she appears at the very beginning of His public ministry the wedding feast of Cana and she appears at the very end of His public ministry – His climax at Calvary.
She appears when Jesus performs His first miracle at Cana and when He performs His greatest miracle as He conquers sin and death rising from the dead.
In both of these scenes Mary is mentioned three times.
At Cana she is mentioned three times and at Calvary she is mentioned three times.
There are many parallels in these two scenes.
At Cana we first hear about Jesus ‘Hour’ and it is here that Jesus refers to (his mother) Mary as ‘Woman’ and at the Cross we see what the ‘Hour’ is all about. Just before He dies on the Cross, in the midst of all this excruciating pain of the crucifixion Jesus asks the beloved disciple John to take care of His mother, and it is here where He turns to His mother and calls her ‘Woman’!
Join me as we explore the theme of The Hour
Do you remember in the wedding feast at Cana where we encountered Jesus talking about His hour?
There at Cana Jesus said to Mary in John 2:4 , “My hour has not yet come”.
And for many chapters afterwards this theme of “the hour” will recur over and over again. Jesus is going to constantly say ‘my hour has not yet come’.
Let me give you a few examples:
John 4:21-23 Jesus says"... the hour is coming, …, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth...”
In John 5:25 Jesus says “… the hour is coming, …, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God….”
So we are hearing about this hour, Jesus says ‘my hour has not yet come’ and then ‘my hour is coming’ and then when we turn to John 7:30, some of the leaders of the Jews in Jerusalem tried to arrest Jesus, but the text tells us Jesus escaped through their midst because quote “his hour had not yet come”. So He escaped from their plans to kill him because His hour had not yet come. In John 8:20 they tried to arrest Jesus once again and once again Jesus escapes because quote “his hour had not yet come. “
Over and over we get to hear about ‘the hour is coming’ in Johns Gospel and by the time we get to chapter 12, we finally have a chance to hear about the hour arriving. As readers we are relieved because we are longing to find out what the Hour is all about.
So lets turn to John 12:20 to see for ourselves what is this “hour” and how it is coming to fulfilment.
John 12:20-33
[20] Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
[21] So these came to Philip, who was from Beth-sa'ida in Galilee, and said to him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
[22] Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew went with Philip and they told Jesus.
[23] And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified.
Now as Jesus is about to enter Jerusalem to die, these Greeks these gentiles come to Him and want to meet Him, foreshadowing how through Jesus death and resurrection He is going to bring about redemption and salvation not just for the Jews but for all humanity, even these pagan Greeks.
Well, Jesus at this moment, says ‘now the hour has come’.
The “hour” has finally come.
Notice in the text what the hour is all about.
The Hour is the hour of His glory (as we see in verse 23 above).
What is the “glory” of Jesus in the Gospel of John?
Take a look at how Jesus describes the moment of His glory in subsequent verses 24 and 25.
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
[25] He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
So Jesus is talking about how His hour has finally come and it’s the hour of His glory where He will be glorified.
Then He talks about this grain of wheat falling into the earth and dying and then He talks about losing your life in order to keep it.
What does verse 24 and 25 tell us about Jesus’ “hour of glory”?
He will lose His life like the grain of wheat and go down into the ground, into the tomb and then on Easter Sunday He will be raised up and bear much fruit – the fruit of salvation for all humanity.
The glory of Christ is not about worldly glory.
This is not the moment where He comes in worldly splendour and all these dignitaries and heads of state are going to bow down before Him.
Quite the opposite.
From a human perspective Jesus death on the Cross is the moment in which He is defeated, it seems, from an earthly perspective.
He is defeated by His enemies.
He is defeated by the Romans.
But yet John’s Gospel is trying to get us to look at this not just from a human perspective but a heavenly or spiritual perspective where we see that Jesus’ crucifixion at the hands of the Romans plotted through the Jewish leaders is actually Jesus’ moment of triumph because He is coming to bring about a spiritual redemption of all humanity.
John’s Gospel tells us a little bit more about this “hour” and what’s going to happen in this hour in John 12 verse 31 to 33.
So pay attention to what Jesus says will happen in His hour of glory.
[31] Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;
[32] and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
[33] He said this to show by what death he was to die.
Notice in Verse 32 Jesus speaks of being lifted up from the earth and will draw all men to himself which refers to being raised up on the Cross and through His death all men are going to be drawn to Him to be saved.
But what is going to happen when Jesus is lifted up and He goes to His death on the Cross?
Verse 31 tells us what is going to happen.
The ruler of this world will be cast out.
Who is the ruler of this world? (see Luke 4:6, Matt 4:9)
The ruler is the devil – satan – the ancient serpent. (see Revelation 12:9)
Notice the hour of Jesus, the hour of His glory that is the hour or the moment in which the devil will be defeated.
It is the moment when Genesis 3:15 will be fulfilled, when the devil is defeated, when the serpent will finally be crushed.
(different translations of Genesis 3:15 say either crushed, bruised or strike the head)
So think about this, the hour on the Cross, when we turn to John 19 and the scene where Jesus is with Mary and the beloved disciple, this is the moment of Jesus hour.
The Hour is the hour His glory but that is also the hour when the devil is defeated - when the ruler of this world is cast out.
That is the hour when Genesis 3:15 is fulfilled and in that context of Genesis 3:15 being fulfilled and the hour of Jesus glory on Calvary, Jesus turns to His mother at that moment (John 19:26) and calls His mother, “Woman”.
What woman do you think Jesus has in mind?
Eve.
The woman of Genesis.
The woman that God spoke of in Genesis 3:15 about how a woman will have a son that will crush the head of the serpent and there in the hour where the ruler of the world is cast out here Mary is present with her son. She is the Woman and through her son, the death of her son crushes the head of the serpent.
Source: Dr Edward Sri Bible Study
Luke 1: 41-42 Blessed are you among women
Luke 1: 41-42 Blessed are you among women
[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Comment - “Blessed are you among women”
There are phrases in the Bible which, when you see how they have been applied elsewhere, may give you extra insight as to what is possibly being said here.
This phrase (blessed among women – most blessed of women – blessed … above all women on earth) is found only in two other places in the Bible.
Judges 5:24,26
[24] "Most blessed of women be Ja'el, the wife of Heber the Ken'ite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.
[26] She put her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen's mallet; she struck Sis'era a blow, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple.
Judith 13:18
[18] And Uzziah said to her, "O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies.
In Luke, this saying “Blessed are you among women” was exclaimed by Elizabeth immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit
It brings to mind the above Old Testament events where warrior like women crush or cut off the head off pagan enemies and because of their action these women are described as ‘blessed among women’.
They were ordinary women who didn’t have any official leadership position and yet God raised them up and they do these very powerful things.
Source: Dr Edward Sri Bible Study - Knowing Mary Through The Bible
[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Comment - “Blessed are you among women”
There are phrases in the Bible which, when you see how they have been applied elsewhere, may give you extra insight as to what is possibly being said here.
This phrase (blessed among women – most blessed of women – blessed … above all women on earth) is found only in two other places in the Bible.
Judges 5:24,26
[24] "Most blessed of women be Ja'el, the wife of Heber the Ken'ite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.
[26] She put her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen's mallet; she struck Sis'era a blow, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple.
Judith 13:18
[18] And Uzziah said to her, "O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies.
In Luke, this saying “Blessed are you among women” was exclaimed by Elizabeth immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit
It brings to mind the above Old Testament events where warrior like women crush or cut off the head off pagan enemies and because of their action these women are described as ‘blessed among women’.
They were ordinary women who didn’t have any official leadership position and yet God raised them up and they do these very powerful things.
Source: Dr Edward Sri Bible Study - Knowing Mary Through The Bible
Genesis 3:14-15 – Eat Dust and Crushing Underfoot
Genesis 3:14-15 – Eat Dust and Crushing Underfoot
[14] The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
[15] I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
Comment
My theme this week continues to explore the above verses.
Recently I was watching a Bible Study and the following little insights came to light.
The commentary below was taken from this Bible study.
*****
These verses are not about snakes. The word used for serpent is nahash.
Nahash is also translated in Isaiah 27:1 and also in Rev 12:9 where it specifically identifies the ancient serpent is the devil.
In verse 14, God is speaking to the serpent and not to Adam nor Eve.
And so verse 14 is a curse by God, so it is bad news for the serpent.
Verse 15 represents the first prophetic announcement of the Messiah and His victory over sin and over the devil.
Right after Adam and Eve sin, God doesn’t abandon them. He gives them hope. He tells them there will eventually be someone who will come and defeat the devil..
There are phrases in the Bible which when you see how they have been applied elsewhere may give you extra insight as to what is possibly being said here.
(Two such phrase are below)
Eat dust
Gen 3:14
The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
“Eat the dust” imagery is found elsewhere in the Old Testament and helps us understand what God is saying here.
Psalm 72:9-11 describes how the kind, the Davidic king will have his enemies bow down before him and they will eat or lick the dust.
It describes the defeat of the kings enemies.
May his foes bow down before him, and his enemies lick the dust! May the kings of Tarshish and of the isles render him tribute, may the kings of Sheba and Seba bring gifts! May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!
Crushing under foot
Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
Bruising or crushing the head of the serpent is one way of saying the serpent is ‘under the feet’
(different translations of Genesis 3:15 say either crushed, bruised or strike the head)
“under feet” imagery is found elsewhere in the Old Testament and helps us understand what God is saying here.
Psalm 110:1 describes how the Davidic kings defeat their enemies by placing the enemies as a footstool – underneath the feet.
The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."
2 Samuel 22:37-43 describes how David’s enemies are crushed and trampled under foot.
[37] Thou didst give a wide place for my steps under me, and my feet did not slip;
[38] I pursued my enemies and destroyed them, and did not turn back until they were consumed.
[39] I consumed them; I thrust them through, so that they did not rise; they fell under my feet.
[40] For thou didst gird me with strength for the battle; thou didst make my assailants sink under me.
[41] Thou didst make my enemies turn their backs to me, those who hated me, and I destroyed them.
[42] They looked, but there was none to save; they cried to the LORD, but he did not answer them.
[43] I beat them fine as the dust of the earth, I crushed them and stamped them down like the mire of the streets.
So when you hear this idea about being under foot, crushed under foot that brings to mind a defeat, a king defeating the enemy.
When you read about the serpent being crushed by this child of a woman, crushing the head of the serpent,
it foreshadows that one day the woman will have a royal son, a Davidic son, a new king who will come and crush the serpent and defeat the devil.
Source: Dr Edward Sri - KNOWING MARY THROUGH THE BIBLE
[14] The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
[15] I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
Comment
My theme this week continues to explore the above verses.
Recently I was watching a Bible Study and the following little insights came to light.
The commentary below was taken from this Bible study.
*****
These verses are not about snakes. The word used for serpent is nahash.
Nahash is also translated in Isaiah 27:1 and also in Rev 12:9 where it specifically identifies the ancient serpent is the devil.
In verse 14, God is speaking to the serpent and not to Adam nor Eve.
And so verse 14 is a curse by God, so it is bad news for the serpent.
Verse 15 represents the first prophetic announcement of the Messiah and His victory over sin and over the devil.
Right after Adam and Eve sin, God doesn’t abandon them. He gives them hope. He tells them there will eventually be someone who will come and defeat the devil..
There are phrases in the Bible which when you see how they have been applied elsewhere may give you extra insight as to what is possibly being said here.
(Two such phrase are below)
Eat dust
Gen 3:14
The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
“Eat the dust” imagery is found elsewhere in the Old Testament and helps us understand what God is saying here.
Psalm 72:9-11 describes how the kind, the Davidic king will have his enemies bow down before him and they will eat or lick the dust.
It describes the defeat of the kings enemies.
May his foes bow down before him, and his enemies lick the dust! May the kings of Tarshish and of the isles render him tribute, may the kings of Sheba and Seba bring gifts! May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!
Crushing under foot
Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
Bruising or crushing the head of the serpent is one way of saying the serpent is ‘under the feet’
(different translations of Genesis 3:15 say either crushed, bruised or strike the head)
“under feet” imagery is found elsewhere in the Old Testament and helps us understand what God is saying here.
Psalm 110:1 describes how the Davidic kings defeat their enemies by placing the enemies as a footstool – underneath the feet.
The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."
2 Samuel 22:37-43 describes how David’s enemies are crushed and trampled under foot.
[37] Thou didst give a wide place for my steps under me, and my feet did not slip;
[38] I pursued my enemies and destroyed them, and did not turn back until they were consumed.
[39] I consumed them; I thrust them through, so that they did not rise; they fell under my feet.
[40] For thou didst gird me with strength for the battle; thou didst make my assailants sink under me.
[41] Thou didst make my enemies turn their backs to me, those who hated me, and I destroyed them.
[42] They looked, but there was none to save; they cried to the LORD, but he did not answer them.
[43] I beat them fine as the dust of the earth, I crushed them and stamped them down like the mire of the streets.
So when you hear this idea about being under foot, crushed under foot that brings to mind a defeat, a king defeating the enemy.
When you read about the serpent being crushed by this child of a woman, crushing the head of the serpent,
it foreshadows that one day the woman will have a royal son, a Davidic son, a new king who will come and crush the serpent and defeat the devil.
Source: Dr Edward Sri - KNOWING MARY THROUGH THE BIBLE
Monday, May 31, 2010
THE EUCHARIST - JOHN 6:63 EXPLORED
VERSE 63 EXPLORED
Verse 63
It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.'"
I have a few observations I would like to make about this verse
If it were a figurative explanation then the rest of the text – the words of Jesus, their implication and the responses of the witnesses make no sense in my opinion.
Do we need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life?
If the answer is yes, then can we say that His flesh does indeed profit us?
If the answer is yes, then does verse 63 of John 6 mean that it counts as nothing to eat Jesus’ flesh and to drink His blood?
Does Jesus’ flesh “count for nothing?”
It is interesting that Jesus uses MY flesh during his discourse except where He is making a distinction in V63 by using the words THE flesh. With this in mind, I hope to stay within the Biblical context in order to understand ‘the flesh’.
When Jesus says "the flesh profits nothing" it refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them or put another way the carnal understanding of fallen human flesh is incapable of grasping spiritual realities
(see John 8:15–16 You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.
and also in Matt 16:17
Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
I see a parallel here with John 6:63 and Matt 16:17, John 8:15-16 and 1 Cor 2:12-14 with the word flesh (man) and spirit (God) and flesh (man) and Father (God).
When you look at Romans 8:4-6 we see spirit and flesh used in the same context it is used in verse 63 … who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
So the “flesh” being referred to here is the flesh of Adam that we have inherited from him. We are all born of the flesh, because we are all “in” Adam. We need to be born again in order to be “in” Christ, the second Adam. Because, in Adam, all die. In Christ, all are made alive. So, when we are born of the flesh, it is of no avail. It is only when we are born again of the Spirit that it is of avail. The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Not Jesus’ flesh, but our flesh.
Jesus is also saying, "It's the Spirit that gives life," and so wait until the Spirit is given. When the Spirit comes down at Pentecost, but especially when the spirit of Christ raises the body of Christ from the dead, it will be the Holy Spirit that makes Christ's flesh and blood holy, glorious and powerful as food for our souls and bodies. Not just the flesh alone. "And the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." What words? That you've got to eat my flesh and drink my blood, those words. It's because of the Holy Spirit that we receive life in that flesh and now it all comes together. There's no either/or; there's a both/and. Verse 63 tells me that Christ's flesh and blood will be so powerful and animating for supernatural life.
In the latter part of verse 63, Jesus says that the words he just spoke to them, i.e., eating his flesh and drinking his blood, are "spirit" and "life." He had just mentioned "life" in verse 53 in which he warned that unless one "eats the flesh of the Son of Man...you have no life in you." Also, verse 57 says, "the one who feeds on me will live." By the use of the words "life" or "live," verses 53, 57 and 63 are all talking about the same "life." What gives the eating of the flesh the power of life? Jesus answers that in the first part of John 6:63 when he says, "the Spirit gives life." It is not just ordinary bread we are eating. It is bread which is given life by the Spirit. As Jesus says in verse 55, "my flesh is real food." It's real because it has real life-giving power by the Spirit. If it were not animated by the Spirit, then, as Jesus says in John 8:63, the "flesh [would] profit nothing." This fits in perfectly with the objection of the Jews. They thought Jesus was saying that merely eating his natural flesh would give eternal life. Jesus says, no, it is my flesh - - flesh that has the Spirit -- which will give you life, not natural flesh.
Verse 63
It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.'"
I have a few observations I would like to make about this verse
If it were a figurative explanation then the rest of the text – the words of Jesus, their implication and the responses of the witnesses make no sense in my opinion.
Do we need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life?
If the answer is yes, then can we say that His flesh does indeed profit us?
If the answer is yes, then does verse 63 of John 6 mean that it counts as nothing to eat Jesus’ flesh and to drink His blood?
Does Jesus’ flesh “count for nothing?”
It is interesting that Jesus uses MY flesh during his discourse except where He is making a distinction in V63 by using the words THE flesh. With this in mind, I hope to stay within the Biblical context in order to understand ‘the flesh’.
When Jesus says "the flesh profits nothing" it refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them or put another way the carnal understanding of fallen human flesh is incapable of grasping spiritual realities
(see John 8:15–16 You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.
and also in Matt 16:17
Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
I see a parallel here with John 6:63 and Matt 16:17, John 8:15-16 and 1 Cor 2:12-14 with the word flesh (man) and spirit (God) and flesh (man) and Father (God).
When you look at Romans 8:4-6 we see spirit and flesh used in the same context it is used in verse 63 … who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
So the “flesh” being referred to here is the flesh of Adam that we have inherited from him. We are all born of the flesh, because we are all “in” Adam. We need to be born again in order to be “in” Christ, the second Adam. Because, in Adam, all die. In Christ, all are made alive. So, when we are born of the flesh, it is of no avail. It is only when we are born again of the Spirit that it is of avail. The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Not Jesus’ flesh, but our flesh.
Jesus is also saying, "It's the Spirit that gives life," and so wait until the Spirit is given. When the Spirit comes down at Pentecost, but especially when the spirit of Christ raises the body of Christ from the dead, it will be the Holy Spirit that makes Christ's flesh and blood holy, glorious and powerful as food for our souls and bodies. Not just the flesh alone. "And the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." What words? That you've got to eat my flesh and drink my blood, those words. It's because of the Holy Spirit that we receive life in that flesh and now it all comes together. There's no either/or; there's a both/and. Verse 63 tells me that Christ's flesh and blood will be so powerful and animating for supernatural life.
In the latter part of verse 63, Jesus says that the words he just spoke to them, i.e., eating his flesh and drinking his blood, are "spirit" and "life." He had just mentioned "life" in verse 53 in which he warned that unless one "eats the flesh of the Son of Man...you have no life in you." Also, verse 57 says, "the one who feeds on me will live." By the use of the words "life" or "live," verses 53, 57 and 63 are all talking about the same "life." What gives the eating of the flesh the power of life? Jesus answers that in the first part of John 6:63 when he says, "the Spirit gives life." It is not just ordinary bread we are eating. It is bread which is given life by the Spirit. As Jesus says in verse 55, "my flesh is real food." It's real because it has real life-giving power by the Spirit. If it were not animated by the Spirit, then, as Jesus says in John 8:63, the "flesh [would] profit nothing." This fits in perfectly with the objection of the Jews. They thought Jesus was saying that merely eating his natural flesh would give eternal life. Jesus says, no, it is my flesh - - flesh that has the Spirit -- which will give you life, not natural flesh.
THE EUCHARIST - PROBLEMS WITH THE LITERAL AND FIGURATIVE INTERPRETATIONS
PROBLEMS WITH THE LITERAL AND FIGURATIVE INTERPRETATIONS
Problems with the Literal Interpretation
• It goes against scripture
Lev 7: [22] The LORD said to Moses, [23] "Say to the people of Israel, You shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep, or goat. [24] The fat of an animal that dies of itself, and the fat of one that is torn by beasts, may be put to any other use, but on no account shall you eat it. [25] For every person who eats of the fat of an animal of which an offering by fire is made to the LORD shall be cut off from his people. [26] Moreover you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwellings. [27] Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people."
You may recall in Deuteronomy all of the additional ceremonies laws that God imposed upon the Israel after the Golden Calf incident because of their idolatry. It was a sort of penitential discipline that was to last until their hearts were cleansed by faith.
In addition to the Ten Commandments, the simple Law that had been given at Sinai before the Golden Calf, there are all these additional penitential ceremonies added to Israel. These constituted a sort of ceremonial yoke that really isolated and quarantined Israel from the nations because their holiness was much weaker than the sinfulness of the gentiles.
Now that is no longer true. It can be dispensed with.
The coming of the Holy Spirit changed all that.
In the Old Testament if I were to touch a leper, a corpse or a menstruating woman I was unclean.
In the New Testament Jesus comes along and a leper touches him. He is not defiled and the leper was cleansed.
Jesus touches a corpse, He is not defiled and the corpse is raised to life.
Jesus is touched by a menstruating woman, He isn’t defiled and her blood flow stops.
The New Covenant has come with Christ and now the power of holiness greatly exceeds the power of sinfulness.
So all of the walls of isolation and quarantine are torn down.
Problems with the Figurative Interpretation
• It doesn’t make sense when read in ‘context’ from scriptural examples
Psalms 27:2; Isaiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; 2 Samuel 23:15-17; Revelation 17:6, 16 - to symbolically eat and drink ones body and blood back in Jesus' times means to assault. This would make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating Him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense. Christ would be saying "He that reviles me has eternal life". (Page 241 "Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Keating")
• It doesn’t explain how those people who could see and touch Jesus and therefore hear the inflection in His voice and see His facial expressions and body language responded as though Jesus was speaking literally.
• It doesn’t explain why the disciples responded with ‘this saying is too hard’ here and not in other discourses with Jesus. A figurative/metaphorical interpretation would be easy to accept and would follow on in the same manner when Disciples heard Jesus calling himself a door or vine.
• It doesn’t explain why a symbolic interpretation here ‘is too hard’. On the contrary, it is extremely easy and requires very little effort in understanding or comprehension.
• It doesn’t explain why a symbolic interpretation would make disciples leave Jesus for good. These are the same disciples who had followed Jesus around and accepted all of His other teachings. No one left Jesus for any other teachings when symbolism was used.
• It doesn’t explain why a symbolic interpretation led the Jews to quarrel/dispute among themselves and the disciples to murmur among themselves ‘at being offended by this’
• If this phrase were metaphorical, a serious difficulty arises in 1 Corinthians 11:25-29,
[29] For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
The context tells me that an actual communion meal is going on among the first century Christians. If it were just eating a symbolic body and drinking symbolic blood then how could any actual eating or drinking of a symbolic meal profane the body and blood of Jesus and thereby you eat and drink judgement upon yourself? These are serious words.
• It doesn’t make sense why Jesus would emphasise His point using the words Amen Amen when he is effectively saying something like: (I have inserted the word ‘figurative’ to assist my understanding of this verse in a figurative sense)
V55 For my ‘figurative’ flesh is true/real food, and my ‘figurative’ blood is true/real drink.
(some translations say true, some say real)
My question here would be how something figurative can also be true/real food or drink?
• In doesn’t make sense if you paraphrase Verse 51 to mean this?
(I have inserted the word ‘symbolic’ to assist my understanding of this verse in a symbolic sense)
I am the living symbolic bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this symbolic bread will live forever; and the symbolic bread that I will give is my symbolic flesh for the life of the world."
Problems with the Literal Interpretation
• It goes against scripture
Lev 7: [22] The LORD said to Moses, [23] "Say to the people of Israel, You shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep, or goat. [24] The fat of an animal that dies of itself, and the fat of one that is torn by beasts, may be put to any other use, but on no account shall you eat it. [25] For every person who eats of the fat of an animal of which an offering by fire is made to the LORD shall be cut off from his people. [26] Moreover you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwellings. [27] Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people."
You may recall in Deuteronomy all of the additional ceremonies laws that God imposed upon the Israel after the Golden Calf incident because of their idolatry. It was a sort of penitential discipline that was to last until their hearts were cleansed by faith.
In addition to the Ten Commandments, the simple Law that had been given at Sinai before the Golden Calf, there are all these additional penitential ceremonies added to Israel. These constituted a sort of ceremonial yoke that really isolated and quarantined Israel from the nations because their holiness was much weaker than the sinfulness of the gentiles.
Now that is no longer true. It can be dispensed with.
The coming of the Holy Spirit changed all that.
In the Old Testament if I were to touch a leper, a corpse or a menstruating woman I was unclean.
In the New Testament Jesus comes along and a leper touches him. He is not defiled and the leper was cleansed.
Jesus touches a corpse, He is not defiled and the corpse is raised to life.
Jesus is touched by a menstruating woman, He isn’t defiled and her blood flow stops.
The New Covenant has come with Christ and now the power of holiness greatly exceeds the power of sinfulness.
So all of the walls of isolation and quarantine are torn down.
Problems with the Figurative Interpretation
• It doesn’t make sense when read in ‘context’ from scriptural examples
Psalms 27:2; Isaiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; 2 Samuel 23:15-17; Revelation 17:6, 16 - to symbolically eat and drink ones body and blood back in Jesus' times means to assault. This would make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating Him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense. Christ would be saying "He that reviles me has eternal life". (Page 241 "Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Keating")
• It doesn’t explain how those people who could see and touch Jesus and therefore hear the inflection in His voice and see His facial expressions and body language responded as though Jesus was speaking literally.
• It doesn’t explain why the disciples responded with ‘this saying is too hard’ here and not in other discourses with Jesus. A figurative/metaphorical interpretation would be easy to accept and would follow on in the same manner when Disciples heard Jesus calling himself a door or vine.
• It doesn’t explain why a symbolic interpretation here ‘is too hard’. On the contrary, it is extremely easy and requires very little effort in understanding or comprehension.
• It doesn’t explain why a symbolic interpretation would make disciples leave Jesus for good. These are the same disciples who had followed Jesus around and accepted all of His other teachings. No one left Jesus for any other teachings when symbolism was used.
• It doesn’t explain why a symbolic interpretation led the Jews to quarrel/dispute among themselves and the disciples to murmur among themselves ‘at being offended by this’
• If this phrase were metaphorical, a serious difficulty arises in 1 Corinthians 11:25-29,
[29] For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
The context tells me that an actual communion meal is going on among the first century Christians. If it were just eating a symbolic body and drinking symbolic blood then how could any actual eating or drinking of a symbolic meal profane the body and blood of Jesus and thereby you eat and drink judgement upon yourself? These are serious words.
• It doesn’t make sense why Jesus would emphasise His point using the words Amen Amen when he is effectively saying something like: (I have inserted the word ‘figurative’ to assist my understanding of this verse in a figurative sense)
V55 For my ‘figurative’ flesh is true/real food, and my ‘figurative’ blood is true/real drink.
(some translations say true, some say real)
My question here would be how something figurative can also be true/real food or drink?
• In doesn’t make sense if you paraphrase Verse 51 to mean this?
(I have inserted the word ‘symbolic’ to assist my understanding of this verse in a symbolic sense)
I am the living symbolic bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this symbolic bread will live forever; and the symbolic bread that I will give is my symbolic flesh for the life of the world."
THE EUCHARIST - THE TWO CONTEXTS
THE TWO CONTEXTS
CONTEXT 1
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in scripture in the literal sense:
• Leviticus 26:29
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
• Jeremiah 19:9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’
CONTEXT 2
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in the metaphorical/figurative sense:
• Psalm 27:2,
KJV - “When the wicked came against me to eat up my flesh, my enemies and foes…”
RSV - When evildoers assail me, uttering slanders against me, my adversaries and foes, they shall stumble and fall.
• Isaiah 9:20
[18] For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. [19] Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. [20] They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbour’s flesh,
We need to understand the ‘eat flesh’ sayings of Jesus within the biblical context and we have only two biblical options to choose from. The precedent has been set. Scripture itself gives you the context on how it is to be understood – after all Jesus could only have been quoting either “context” 1 or 2. Which ever one it was, it will give us eternal life.
Using scripture, which context above should we apply to John 6 – the literal or figurative?
CONTEXT 1
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in scripture in the literal sense:
• Leviticus 26:29
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
• Jeremiah 19:9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’
CONTEXT 2
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in the metaphorical/figurative sense:
• Psalm 27:2,
KJV - “When the wicked came against me to eat up my flesh, my enemies and foes…”
RSV - When evildoers assail me, uttering slanders against me, my adversaries and foes, they shall stumble and fall.
• Isaiah 9:20
[18] For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. [19] Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. [20] They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbour’s flesh,
We need to understand the ‘eat flesh’ sayings of Jesus within the biblical context and we have only two biblical options to choose from. The precedent has been set. Scripture itself gives you the context on how it is to be understood – after all Jesus could only have been quoting either “context” 1 or 2. Which ever one it was, it will give us eternal life.
Using scripture, which context above should we apply to John 6 – the literal or figurative?
THE EUCHARIST - COMMENTARY ON JOHN 6
COMMENTS ON EACH VERSE
My understanding of what transpired below is based on reading the text for what it is saying on its own but also within the context of the whole of the Bible> I have listened to what others have had to say and in response to all of this you will see themes in relation to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Moses.
I have tried to see/feel/read as if I was one of those people who could see and touch Jesus and therefore hear the inflection in His voice and see His facial expressions and body language. I have also tried to understand this discourse in a manner which reflects the radical event that is about to transpire. Even up until verse 67, Jesus (the greatest teacher in the WORLD) didn’t compromise what He was saying although it seems confusion was all around Him to the point where He asked if His disciples wanted to leave Him over what He has just said.
The TRUE and correct interpretation must somehow reflect why the disciples who had been following Jesus around responded with ‘this saying is too hard’ and they left Jesus for good over what He said.
Gospel of John – Chapter 6
51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
In this one line we can deduce the following:
*Jesus is the living bread * eating Jesus (this bread) and you will live forever * the bread is my flesh which is given for the life of the world.
Jesus gave his literal/real/true flesh on the Cross for the life of the world.
It was certainly NOT His figurative/symbolic flesh on the Cross.
It is no coincidence that this discourse has its background in Exodus.
Ex 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, `At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"
It is interesting that in John 6:51 we see a similarity to Exodus 16:12 whereby God/Jesus hear murmurings and they both talk of eating flesh and being filled with bread. Jesus, however, is personalizing this and in both instances ‘you shall know that I am the Lord your God’.
The last point I wish to make in regard to this verse is the “I am” statement.
Jesus is labeling himself here!
In other places he labeled himself as in such terms as “I am the door" and "I am the vine”.
One MUST make a distinction between and NOT confuse “a label” and “an action”.
52 - The Jews quarrelled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
We read in verse 41 that the Jews have already been agitated by murmuring at a STATEMENT made by Jesus.
V41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven
In verse 52 however here we see the Jews took Jesus literally by quarrelling.
The Jews (disputed, quarrelled amongst themselves) respond to an INSTRUCTION in Verse 52.
A precedent has been set.
The Jews considered the ‘eating flesh’ line far more inflammatory and shocking by dispute/quarrel/fight among themselves than the ‘I came down from heaven’ line by which they murmured.
If someone makes a statement, you can take it or leave it to some extent.
If someone instructs or commands you to do something then YOU have to act.
YOU have to actually do what is asked of you. This requires effort.
Listening to a statement does not.
Ask yourself – what would shock you more:
* a statement someone says about themselves
or
* a command that affects you personally and has grave consequences if you don’t act on this instruction.
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
When Jesus says Amen Amen it must be something important He is stressing here to those listeners – something like: I am making a point here.
Jesus didn’t say Amen Amen with every lesson.
54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
In John 6:44 : “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day”
We can equate:
“come to Jesus and you will be raised up on the last day”
“eat my flesh and drink my blood and I will raise you up on the last day”
Therefore to eat my flesh and drink my blood is to come to Jesus.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. (RSV)
Other translations:
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (NIV)
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.(KJV)
For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed (NKJV)
For My flesh is true and genuine food, and My blood is true and genuine drink (AMP)
For my flesh truly is food, and my blood truly is drink( YLT)
It puzzles me as to how else can you say “literal” food?
Everyone should put aside any prejudice and answer this:
What does Jesus have to say in order for you to believe he is talking about REAL FOOD?
Of course, we would all agree that Jesus is the True Passover Lamb.
Everyone who escaped from Egypt in the Exodus HAD to eat the original Passover lamb.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
How close do you want to get to Jesus?
Abide in Him by eating His flesh
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
You will get eternal life from this eating
It is interesting that in Leviticus 17:14 we see the exact opposite:
"For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off,"
The only difference here however, Jesus is not saying you can now eat any flesh and drink blood, but eat and drink HIS alone.
Jesus knows “the blood is identified with its life’.
Taken together V56 and 57, eat Jesus flesh and
It is also no accident that with Jesus we see the exact opposite on a number of Old Testament commands.
In the Old Testament if I were to touch a leper, a corpse or a menstruating woman I was unclean.
In the New Testament Jesus comes along and a leper touches him. He is not defiled and the leper was cleansed.
Jesus touches a corpse, He is not defiled and the corpse is raised to life.
Jesus is touched by a menstruating woman, He isn’t defiled and her blood flow stops.
The New Covenant has come with Christ.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
– Like V 51 – Jesus is this bread/flesh
Jesus in verse 51 called His flesh a LIVING bread, unlike the manna.
A number of protestant Christians (not unlike the situation 2000 years ago) have trouble with this whole discourse and highlight the “living forever” line by saying something like :
Notice that he said if you eat the bread you will not die like your ancestors. But when you eat the Eucharist you do die just like they did, right?
It is no accident that in Genesis, God told Adam not to EAT the Apple because if he does he will die (spiritually).
What does the serpent say? “You will not die (physically)”.
What does Jesus say “You will live forever (spiritually)”.
What do some protestants say? “You will die (physically)!”
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Response shows us that many of the disciples took Jesus literally.
We need to understand the ‘eat flesh’ sayings of Jesus within the biblical context and we have only two biblical options to choose from. The precedent has been set. Scripture itself gives you the context on how it is to be understood – after all Jesus could only have been quoting either “context” 1 or 2. Which ever one it was, it will give us eternal life.
You would agree that we MUST stay within the Biblical context.
You decide which context.
No wonder the disciples found this saying hard!
CONTEXT 1
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in scripture in the literal sense:
Leviticus 26:29
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
Jeremiah 19:9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’
CONTEXT 2
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in the metaphorical/figurative sense:
Psalm 27:2,
KJV - “When the wicked came against me to eat up my flesh, my enemies and foes…”
RSV - When evildoers assail me, uttering slanders against me, my adversaries and foes, they shall stumble and fall.
Isaiah 9:20
[18] For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. [19] Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. [20] They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbour’s flesh,
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?
We also have another hint here about what is going on because Jesus had just mentioned the manna.
In Exodus 15:24 and 16:2 we see the people murmuring against Moses
(Jesus is the New Moses –read That Moses Thing if you are unsure).
They murmur saying “What shall we drink?” and “We ate bread to the full in Egypt and you have brought us our here into the wilderness to die of hunger”
Murmuring about real eating (John 6:61) or the lack of food to eat (Exodus 16:2)
Not only is it hard to accept by many disciples but Jesus knows what He is asking is shocking has SHOCKED them.
Can a figure of speech shock you?
Some modern day Christians who shy away from being shocked themselves try to say this verse is similar to the figure of speech Jesus used when He said ‘I am a vine’. I’m not shocked with this sort of terminology and NEITHER were the Christians on the Bible.
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
Jesus is referring to another supernatural event.
Some people try to focus on this ‘shocking’ response by Jesus. But no Christian (catholic or otherwise) is shocked by this verse.
In much the same way, the first Christians weren’t either.
You don’t see them reacting ‘shocked’ in the slightest in Luke 10:18, John 1:51 or in
John 3:13 - “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man."
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
There are many parallels we can look at, such as Matt 16:17, John 8:15-16 and 1 Cor 2:12-14 with the word flesh (man) and spirit (God) and flesh (man) and Father (God). Paul expressed it just as clearly in Romans 8:4-6
..who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Please note the use of words – Jesus throughout says MY FLESH, but in this verse He refers to THE flesh.
Think of this analogy:
To a pagan (assuming you have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) you are a plain human being.
But a baptized Christian is a new creation in Christ – it is the Spirit that gives LIFE!
64 But there are some of you who do not believe."
Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
Not only is it hard to accept by many disciples, not only has Jesus SHOCKED them, but now He states plainly that some just can’t believe what He is saying to them.
65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."
refer to verse 63 – don’t try to understand this without relying on the Holy Spirit. It is hopeless to rely on the flesh (man’s intellect alone)
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
I can’t believe disciples left Jesus for good over this one teaching, which some say is just the same as when Jesus said He was a vine or a door.
Your interpretation of this whole event MUST reflect the radical dialogue between Jesus and the disciples and Jews.
This day is like no other in what Jesus was saying!
67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"
What a question to ask. It reveals to me that everyone there on that day had trouble with this teaching.
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."
Not a convincing response really is it when everyone else was walking away. Even the Apostles had trouble but weren’t prepared to leave like the rest.
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?"
71 He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
My understanding of what transpired below is based on reading the text for what it is saying on its own but also within the context of the whole of the Bible> I have listened to what others have had to say and in response to all of this you will see themes in relation to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Moses.
I have tried to see/feel/read as if I was one of those people who could see and touch Jesus and therefore hear the inflection in His voice and see His facial expressions and body language. I have also tried to understand this discourse in a manner which reflects the radical event that is about to transpire. Even up until verse 67, Jesus (the greatest teacher in the WORLD) didn’t compromise what He was saying although it seems confusion was all around Him to the point where He asked if His disciples wanted to leave Him over what He has just said.
The TRUE and correct interpretation must somehow reflect why the disciples who had been following Jesus around responded with ‘this saying is too hard’ and they left Jesus for good over what He said.
Gospel of John – Chapter 6
51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
In this one line we can deduce the following:
*Jesus is the living bread * eating Jesus (this bread) and you will live forever * the bread is my flesh which is given for the life of the world.
Jesus gave his literal/real/true flesh on the Cross for the life of the world.
It was certainly NOT His figurative/symbolic flesh on the Cross.
It is no coincidence that this discourse has its background in Exodus.
Ex 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, `At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"
It is interesting that in John 6:51 we see a similarity to Exodus 16:12 whereby God/Jesus hear murmurings and they both talk of eating flesh and being filled with bread. Jesus, however, is personalizing this and in both instances ‘you shall know that I am the Lord your God’.
The last point I wish to make in regard to this verse is the “I am” statement.
Jesus is labeling himself here!
In other places he labeled himself as in such terms as “I am the door" and "I am the vine”.
One MUST make a distinction between and NOT confuse “a label” and “an action”.
52 - The Jews quarrelled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
We read in verse 41 that the Jews have already been agitated by murmuring at a STATEMENT made by Jesus.
V41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven
In verse 52 however here we see the Jews took Jesus literally by quarrelling.
The Jews (disputed, quarrelled amongst themselves) respond to an INSTRUCTION in Verse 52.
A precedent has been set.
The Jews considered the ‘eating flesh’ line far more inflammatory and shocking by dispute/quarrel/fight among themselves than the ‘I came down from heaven’ line by which they murmured.
If someone makes a statement, you can take it or leave it to some extent.
If someone instructs or commands you to do something then YOU have to act.
YOU have to actually do what is asked of you. This requires effort.
Listening to a statement does not.
Ask yourself – what would shock you more:
* a statement someone says about themselves
or
* a command that affects you personally and has grave consequences if you don’t act on this instruction.
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
When Jesus says Amen Amen it must be something important He is stressing here to those listeners – something like: I am making a point here.
Jesus didn’t say Amen Amen with every lesson.
54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
In John 6:44 : “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day”
We can equate:
“come to Jesus and you will be raised up on the last day”
“eat my flesh and drink my blood and I will raise you up on the last day”
Therefore to eat my flesh and drink my blood is to come to Jesus.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. (RSV)
Other translations:
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (NIV)
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.(KJV)
For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed (NKJV)
For My flesh is true and genuine food, and My blood is true and genuine drink (AMP)
For my flesh truly is food, and my blood truly is drink( YLT)
It puzzles me as to how else can you say “literal” food?
Everyone should put aside any prejudice and answer this:
What does Jesus have to say in order for you to believe he is talking about REAL FOOD?
Of course, we would all agree that Jesus is the True Passover Lamb.
Everyone who escaped from Egypt in the Exodus HAD to eat the original Passover lamb.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
How close do you want to get to Jesus?
Abide in Him by eating His flesh
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
You will get eternal life from this eating
It is interesting that in Leviticus 17:14 we see the exact opposite:
"For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off,"
The only difference here however, Jesus is not saying you can now eat any flesh and drink blood, but eat and drink HIS alone.
Jesus knows “the blood is identified with its life’.
Taken together V56 and 57, eat Jesus flesh and
It is also no accident that with Jesus we see the exact opposite on a number of Old Testament commands.
In the Old Testament if I were to touch a leper, a corpse or a menstruating woman I was unclean.
In the New Testament Jesus comes along and a leper touches him. He is not defiled and the leper was cleansed.
Jesus touches a corpse, He is not defiled and the corpse is raised to life.
Jesus is touched by a menstruating woman, He isn’t defiled and her blood flow stops.
The New Covenant has come with Christ.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
– Like V 51 – Jesus is this bread/flesh
Jesus in verse 51 called His flesh a LIVING bread, unlike the manna.
A number of protestant Christians (not unlike the situation 2000 years ago) have trouble with this whole discourse and highlight the “living forever” line by saying something like :
Notice that he said if you eat the bread you will not die like your ancestors. But when you eat the Eucharist you do die just like they did, right?
It is no accident that in Genesis, God told Adam not to EAT the Apple because if he does he will die (spiritually).
What does the serpent say? “You will not die (physically)”.
What does Jesus say “You will live forever (spiritually)”.
What do some protestants say? “You will die (physically)!”
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Response shows us that many of the disciples took Jesus literally.
We need to understand the ‘eat flesh’ sayings of Jesus within the biblical context and we have only two biblical options to choose from. The precedent has been set. Scripture itself gives you the context on how it is to be understood – after all Jesus could only have been quoting either “context” 1 or 2. Which ever one it was, it will give us eternal life.
You would agree that we MUST stay within the Biblical context.
You decide which context.
No wonder the disciples found this saying hard!
CONTEXT 1
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in scripture in the literal sense:
Leviticus 26:29
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
Jeremiah 19:9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’
CONTEXT 2
Here are some ‘eating flesh’ verses in the metaphorical/figurative sense:
Psalm 27:2,
KJV - “When the wicked came against me to eat up my flesh, my enemies and foes…”
RSV - When evildoers assail me, uttering slanders against me, my adversaries and foes, they shall stumble and fall.
Isaiah 9:20
[18] For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. [19] Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. [20] They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbour’s flesh,
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?
We also have another hint here about what is going on because Jesus had just mentioned the manna.
In Exodus 15:24 and 16:2 we see the people murmuring against Moses
(Jesus is the New Moses –read That Moses Thing if you are unsure).
They murmur saying “What shall we drink?” and “We ate bread to the full in Egypt and you have brought us our here into the wilderness to die of hunger”
Murmuring about real eating (John 6:61) or the lack of food to eat (Exodus 16:2)
Not only is it hard to accept by many disciples but Jesus knows what He is asking is shocking has SHOCKED them.
Can a figure of speech shock you?
Some modern day Christians who shy away from being shocked themselves try to say this verse is similar to the figure of speech Jesus used when He said ‘I am a vine’. I’m not shocked with this sort of terminology and NEITHER were the Christians on the Bible.
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
Jesus is referring to another supernatural event.
Some people try to focus on this ‘shocking’ response by Jesus. But no Christian (catholic or otherwise) is shocked by this verse.
In much the same way, the first Christians weren’t either.
You don’t see them reacting ‘shocked’ in the slightest in Luke 10:18, John 1:51 or in
John 3:13 - “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man."
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
There are many parallels we can look at, such as Matt 16:17, John 8:15-16 and 1 Cor 2:12-14 with the word flesh (man) and spirit (God) and flesh (man) and Father (God). Paul expressed it just as clearly in Romans 8:4-6
..who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Please note the use of words – Jesus throughout says MY FLESH, but in this verse He refers to THE flesh.
Think of this analogy:
To a pagan (assuming you have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) you are a plain human being.
But a baptized Christian is a new creation in Christ – it is the Spirit that gives LIFE!
64 But there are some of you who do not believe."
Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
Not only is it hard to accept by many disciples, not only has Jesus SHOCKED them, but now He states plainly that some just can’t believe what He is saying to them.
65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."
refer to verse 63 – don’t try to understand this without relying on the Holy Spirit. It is hopeless to rely on the flesh (man’s intellect alone)
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
I can’t believe disciples left Jesus for good over this one teaching, which some say is just the same as when Jesus said He was a vine or a door.
Your interpretation of this whole event MUST reflect the radical dialogue between Jesus and the disciples and Jews.
This day is like no other in what Jesus was saying!
67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"
What a question to ask. It reveals to me that everyone there on that day had trouble with this teaching.
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."
Not a convincing response really is it when everyone else was walking away. Even the Apostles had trouble but weren’t prepared to leave like the rest.
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?"
71 He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
THE EUCHARIST - THREE HURDLES
OVERVIEW
Three main points that I thought I would bring to your attention was:
1. Interpreting Drinking Blood
In John 6 and at the Last Supper we read Jesus say the words that a person must drink His blood.
I have posted this line of thinking – this observation - to many anti-Catholics on the CARM forum and no one touches it. Is it because they don’t know how to respond?
It can be summarised as follows:
• Same Teacher (Jesus)
• Same words (drink My blood)
• Same Feast (Passover – one year apart)
• Same people being taught (The Apostles – the ones who didn’t walk away from Jesus in John 6 – although protestants will say they didn’t walk away because they got it right and understood Jesus words as symbolic or some such thing )
• Same understanding/meaning - the only difference being, the second time Jesus said the exact same words He hands a cup to the Apostles and they drink.
• Same person being identified as betraying Jesus is both discourses (Judas)
• One could add in another Same, with the same understanding/doctrine for the last 2000 years - the wine becomes the actual literal and spiritual blood of Jesus.
Maybe our non Catholic friends overlooked the fact that a miracle occurs every time Jesus gave the blessing/gave thanks throughout the Gospels.
The Last Supper was no exception. Which leads me to point 2 below.
2. The Power of the Blessing
The Power of the Blessing – It is the Spirit That Gives Life!
CARM seems to miss this whole “blessing/give thanks” thing!
What do we see at the beginning of John 6?
We see Jesus multiply 5 loaves. How?
Jesus took bread, GAVE THANKS, and handed the bread out.
It was a supernatural event – a miracle performed by Jesus.
The very next day Jesus said to all those that followed Him to ‘eat His flesh and drink His blood’.
What do we see at the Last Supper?
Those two events that happened one day apart in John 6 get combined.
Jesus took bread, GAVE THANKS and handed the bread out while saying ‘this is My body, take and eat’ and likewise He did the same with the cup of wine. Jesus took the cup GAVE THANKS and handed the Cup saying "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” Luke records how important this meal was with Jesus saying He earnestly desired (key words to gain an insight as to how important Jesus viewed this meal) to eat this Passover with His disciples and it was here He established the New Covenant.
The Last Supper was a supernatural event – a miracle was performed by Jesus.
Although that should be enough, Jesus reinforced this when He met with the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:30). He took the bread, BLESSED (GAVE THANKS) and handed it to them and at that moment He disappeared at the breaking of the bread. This meal was a supernatural event – a miracle was performed by Jesus. Another observation can be made here, scripture alone was not enough for the disciples to see Jesus.
To sum it up – when Jesus blesses the meal as He has done above, the Spirit gives life and the supernatural occurs.
Just make sure we understand the Blessing does not happen at all the meals of Jesus but only at very ‘instructional’ meals may I suggest you read when Jesus eats fish in Luke 24:43 and bread and fish in John 21:13 – there is no blessing - no giving thanks.
And if someone objects by stating that God only goes inside humans, they have not read about the burning bush in the Book of Exodus.
3. Transubstantiation
Simple research would reveal the Catholic Church agrees with other non catholic Christians in that it is definitely spiritual. The priest at every Mass at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist refers to the wine saying it will become our spiritual drink.
Amen to the fact it is the Spirit that gives LIFE! It is a spiritual reality! (reality = real)
But importantly non catholic Christians interpret these words as spiritual and figurative whereas the Catholic Church interprets these words as spiritual and literal.
Catholic Christians say if you are a Christian you literally are a new creation in Christ. Catholics believe the Spirit changes things for real.
The Spirit gives literal life even if the outside looks the same as before!
That is a Biblical concept.
To modify the word pagan, Christians “are no longer” pagans, “but only retain their appearance of being” pagans. What has changed – the Spirit within the person!
This is the same for the Real Presence.
Transubstantiation states that the substance of the elements are changed even though their appearance is not.
Therefore non Catholic Christians must believe that ALL Christians are only figuratively a new creation and must think the Spirit gives only a figurative life. Therefore, you might label yourself a Christian but you are figuratively a Christian but literally you are a pagan on the outside and on the inside.
Three main points that I thought I would bring to your attention was:
1. Interpreting Drinking Blood
In John 6 and at the Last Supper we read Jesus say the words that a person must drink His blood.
I have posted this line of thinking – this observation - to many anti-Catholics on the CARM forum and no one touches it. Is it because they don’t know how to respond?
It can be summarised as follows:
• Same Teacher (Jesus)
• Same words (drink My blood)
• Same Feast (Passover – one year apart)
• Same people being taught (The Apostles – the ones who didn’t walk away from Jesus in John 6 – although protestants will say they didn’t walk away because they got it right and understood Jesus words as symbolic or some such thing )
• Same understanding/meaning - the only difference being, the second time Jesus said the exact same words He hands a cup to the Apostles and they drink.
• Same person being identified as betraying Jesus is both discourses (Judas)
• One could add in another Same, with the same understanding/doctrine for the last 2000 years - the wine becomes the actual literal and spiritual blood of Jesus.
Maybe our non Catholic friends overlooked the fact that a miracle occurs every time Jesus gave the blessing/gave thanks throughout the Gospels.
The Last Supper was no exception. Which leads me to point 2 below.
2. The Power of the Blessing
The Power of the Blessing – It is the Spirit That Gives Life!
CARM seems to miss this whole “blessing/give thanks” thing!
What do we see at the beginning of John 6?
We see Jesus multiply 5 loaves. How?
Jesus took bread, GAVE THANKS, and handed the bread out.
It was a supernatural event – a miracle performed by Jesus.
The very next day Jesus said to all those that followed Him to ‘eat His flesh and drink His blood’.
What do we see at the Last Supper?
Those two events that happened one day apart in John 6 get combined.
Jesus took bread, GAVE THANKS and handed the bread out while saying ‘this is My body, take and eat’ and likewise He did the same with the cup of wine. Jesus took the cup GAVE THANKS and handed the Cup saying "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” Luke records how important this meal was with Jesus saying He earnestly desired (key words to gain an insight as to how important Jesus viewed this meal) to eat this Passover with His disciples and it was here He established the New Covenant.
The Last Supper was a supernatural event – a miracle was performed by Jesus.
Although that should be enough, Jesus reinforced this when He met with the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:30). He took the bread, BLESSED (GAVE THANKS) and handed it to them and at that moment He disappeared at the breaking of the bread. This meal was a supernatural event – a miracle was performed by Jesus. Another observation can be made here, scripture alone was not enough for the disciples to see Jesus.
To sum it up – when Jesus blesses the meal as He has done above, the Spirit gives life and the supernatural occurs.
Just make sure we understand the Blessing does not happen at all the meals of Jesus but only at very ‘instructional’ meals may I suggest you read when Jesus eats fish in Luke 24:43 and bread and fish in John 21:13 – there is no blessing - no giving thanks.
And if someone objects by stating that God only goes inside humans, they have not read about the burning bush in the Book of Exodus.
3. Transubstantiation
Simple research would reveal the Catholic Church agrees with other non catholic Christians in that it is definitely spiritual. The priest at every Mass at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist refers to the wine saying it will become our spiritual drink.
Amen to the fact it is the Spirit that gives LIFE! It is a spiritual reality! (reality = real)
But importantly non catholic Christians interpret these words as spiritual and figurative whereas the Catholic Church interprets these words as spiritual and literal.
Catholic Christians say if you are a Christian you literally are a new creation in Christ. Catholics believe the Spirit changes things for real.
The Spirit gives literal life even if the outside looks the same as before!
That is a Biblical concept.
To modify the word pagan, Christians “are no longer” pagans, “but only retain their appearance of being” pagans. What has changed – the Spirit within the person!
This is the same for the Real Presence.
Transubstantiation states that the substance of the elements are changed even though their appearance is not.
Therefore non Catholic Christians must believe that ALL Christians are only figuratively a new creation and must think the Spirit gives only a figurative life. Therefore, you might label yourself a Christian but you are figuratively a Christian but literally you are a pagan on the outside and on the inside.
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